327. When Tips and Tools Aren’t Enough to Create Lasting Change with Christen Conly

You can know exactly what to do and still find yourself repeating the same behavior. You make the plan, feel motivated, and get going, only to hit that point where the novelty wears off and the old pattern comes right back. Then the question becomes whether you need more discipline, a better tool, or someone else to finally tell you what you’re missing.

That confusion is the messy middle of change, and it’s where both clients and coaches can start to lose the plot. What gets you started isn’t always what gets you through this part, especially when shame, identity, and old protective patterns get involved. It’s also where coaches can start wondering if they don’t know enough, if the client isn’t ready, or if they should be doing more to fix what’s happening.

In this episode of Truce with Food, I sit down with Christen Conly, a yoga teacher, holistic health and embodiment coach, and graduate of my Truce Coaching Certification, to talk about what changed when she stopped relying on more tips and tools. We get into why falling off track can make sense, how the urge to fix clients creates its own problems, and what becomes possible when change is treated as a process to navigate rather than something to eradicate.

6:34 – What led Christen Conly to Truce Coaching Certification

12:48 – Why starting and stopping behaviors require different coaching skills

16:17 – The client Christen wishes she could support with what she knows now

17:58 – When helping clients becomes entangled with approval

20:20 – Reframing self-sabotage as a protective response

23:10 – Shame-based motivation versus sustainable motivation

27:12 – Letting go of the responsibility to fix clients

32:21 – How Truce Coaching Certification helped Christen coach with more confidence

37:04 – The difference between mindset, identity, and story

39:26 – Technical versus adaptive change and creating safety to experiment

41:41 – How Christen’s coaching changed after certification

44:45 – Using the emotional immune system with clients

Mentioned In When Tips and Tools Aren’t Enough to Create Lasting Change with Christen Conly

Christen Conly | Instagram

Get Clients Unstuck and Why Another Tool Isn’t the Answer

Truce Coaching Certification

Find Your Food Stage Quiz

Get Clients Unstuck, Another Tool Isn’t the Answer is a free training for health coaches, nutritional therapy practitioners, fitness instructors, and other change agents. 

Learn why clients fall back into old patterns, where traditional coaching can fall short, and what supports lasting change. 

Available through August 31st at trucewithfood.com/certification.

Transcript

Ali Shapiro: Welcome to Truce With Food, the podcast where we stop fighting food and start addressing the deeper story of what you suspect is going on but can't put your finger on. Because the focus on food is a waste of your precious time, resources and life. 

I felt like this was the thing that changed everything, this program, this certification, and this process, because it was, for so many years, yo-yo dieting, and back and forth, and on and off. And it's confusing to the body and to myself. And then that comes along with the shame piece. But it took me working through with the Truce certification to really even see that connection of, it's OK to fall off track. It's OK to have been through the process. 

I'm your host, Ali Shapiro, an integrated health expert with a 19-year proven track record of client success. I'm a 33-year and counting cancer survivor and creator of the research-based Truce with Food framework that came out of my own personal experience from recovering from cancer and yo-yo dieting. Because you name it, I had tried it. I also have a master's degree from the University of Pennsylvania. I'm affectionately called people's last best resort and a coach's coach as people come to me, when they've tried everything and nothing's worked long term. This show is where we quiet the noise so we can go deep to get you the results you deserve. This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute personal, individual or medical advice. 

Now onto the show. So I know when this is dropping in July, it is peak summer. I hope you all are enjoying the summer as much as I am. And believe it or not, in a month or so here, we are going to have our back-to-school vibes coming on. And I have two launches or program openings that are happening then. One is Truce with Food Consistency for those of you who want to work on your own relationship to food, eating habits and triggers. And then the other big program I have starting is my Truce Coaching Certification. This is a year-long trauma-informed certification that really focuses on the reality that what gets clients started is not what keeps them going, okay? So this certification is really for people who got into coaching, because they care, heart-centered, they want to have mastery and excellence. And you've had a couple years under your belt. Some of the people who have taken the certification, have decades of health and wellness in their background, or therapy in their background. 

And you start to realize that clients, and often like ourselves, fall into this pattern that you realize you can only get clients to a certain point, especially in the health coaching space. We all start out with tips and tricks. I want to normalize this and this works for a couple of years. But if you want to go further with people and really get them the deep transformation and results that they want, this is where my Truce Coaching certification gives you those skills. Because what happens is after a couple years and you've been observing these patterns of only being able to take clients to a certain point, two things happen. Either you start to judge the client as not ready for change. Oh, they're not a right fit, whatever, we judge them in a certain way. Or we judge ourselves and say, I have to go get another training. I don't know enough tools. I'm anxious about this. Both of those things can be true. And there's a third way, which is what my new training is all about and really where the Truce coaching certification lives. This third way is understanding what is your part in this change process and what is the client's part? And how do you develop the skill set to support them and yourself through the messy middle of change? Okay. 

And so this new training, which you can find at the trucewithfood.com/certification is called “Get Clients Unstuck: Another Tool is not the Answer”. And it could be in parentheses and judging your client is not the answer either. But this is the first step in really understanding what's actually happening. And in this training, I will help you identify the root problem of what's happening when clients get stuck, or they're falling off, or, you know, I hate in the medical world, they call it noncompliance. It's like, are they and well, that's a whole other podcast. But we're going to say like, what's really going on when the novelty of change has worn off? Okay, when the education piece, the tips and tricks, we've kind of exhausted those. I'm going to tell you why traditional coaching isn't enough in the middle of change, especially if you're working with food and body stuff. And this includes mindset work, CBT, all of this stuff that is really brain focused. So we're going to get into why in the middle of change people actually aren't coachable and what you can do instead. And then you're going to understand how both you and your client are different people in the middle of change. Like I said, once that novelty is worn off. 

And then we're going to talk about what actually works so you can get clients the results that frankly they can't really get anywhere else. You really love your work. Christen and I, in this interview, which is what this podcast is about today, talk about just loving the work so much more. And then also your business thrives. I have been doing this for 19 years. I've had to sustain myself. I don't have a partner or family that helps me out. And I'm just sharing that because you have to be doing something right to stay in business for 19 years. I also have the most amazing clients. So that helps. But this work just attracts the best people and the best clients. So it's really just an amazing up level, the Truce Coaching Certification. But go check out that training first. Again, the link is in the show notes. It's Get Clients Unstuck and Why Another Tool Isn't the Answer. This training is up for a limited time through August 31st. That's when the Truce Coaching Certification registration process ends. Watch the training. If you have an aha from it, email me at ali@alishapiro.com, tell me what it is. And if… also if you're interested in the certification, email me. I want to talk to everyone before they register, just to make sure it's the right fit. 

So this leads me to our episode today where I have Christen Conly on, who took the Truce Coaching Certification, because I want you to hear from someone who actually went through it. And what I love about Christen is she came to it because she was seeing she could only take clients to a certain point. And I had worked with a friend of hers who had recommended her my work, which is how she found the podcast. And so she took it, because… and she had a lot of other training. And we talk about how, you know, the Truce Coaching Certification is the toolbox of change, the process of change. And so I'm going to give you Christen's background, because you're going to see she has so much of a background. And she's someone who's great to work with. She actually supports my clients in my Truce With Food programs. So I want to tell you a little bit about her and to set up our interview today. Christen is a yoga teacher. She's an embodiment and holistic health coach. She's trained in Reiki. She's trained in intuitive energy. And really her whole goal is to help people reconnect with the wisdom of their bodies to create that lasting transformation. 

In this interview today, we really talk about the key is bringing people back to themselves over and over again and what feels fun and what feels good for them. She draws from a deeply integrative approach, blending holistic coaching, energy work and somatics. She has a Bachelor of Science in Human Development from Penn State University and she's completed over 500 hours of training in yoga, meditation, mantra, energy work, somatic experiencing and continuing education and health coaching methodologies. And her whole goal is to help clients develop self-awareness, cultivate nervous system regulation and reconnect with their innate capacity for healing, resilience and authentic living. We'll link her website in the show notes as well as her Instagram handle. And also, if you aren't a change practitioner, a health and wellness practitioner, if you're just someone trying to figure this out for yourself, I think you'll also like today's episode, because we kind of pull the curtain behind what it really takes to change, like lasting change. 

And so I think if you've struggled with that or you feel like you've hit your own wall, this episode is going to give you a lot of ahas of, oh, I need to start actually doing something different. And not because anybody's wrong or anyone's doing it wrong, but this is just a different skill set for the middle of change. Okay. All right. Enjoy today's episode. And if you are Truce Coaching Certification curious, check out that training and email me, so we can set up a chat. There's also all that information, how to do that on the website at trucewithfood.com/certification. Okay, on to today's episode. 

Ali Shapiro: Oh, Christen, it is so good to have you here to talk some shop. I love talking with other change agents, practitioners, so thanks for joining me. 

Christen Conly: Yeah, thanks for having me. I've been listening since 2016, so it feels like it's an honor 10 years later. 

Ali Shapiro: I appreciate you being an OG. 

Christen Conly: Yes.

Ali Shapiro: I know sometimes when people are like, you had your podcast for 10 years? And I'm like, yeah, there was like this whole era, where you had to explain to people it's like recorded radio. But now podcasting is everywhere. But of course, the big corporations have come in. And that's a whole other podcast. So here we are out here still being indie. 

Christen Conly: Yes, that's it. 

Ali Shapiro: So, we're here today to talk about my Truce coaching certification is open for enrollment. And I talked about that more in the intro. But I wanted to talk to you about it and your experience, because essentially, even if you aren't a practitioner who's listening to this, this is about how to get unstuck and kind of, I think, just really important for anyone to hear, because a lot of what we're taught about how to get unstuck, especially as practitioners, is that we kind of have to go in and fix people and have all the answers and follow things. So I just, I want to talk to you about your own experience going through the Truce Coaching Certification, so people kind of get a window into what it is and how it's different. Of the people who have been certified in the Truce Coaching certification, about half are like current clients, who go through it and they're like, I really want to do this. This is the missing piece. And then the other half are people like you who we had never worked together directly, but you had a friend who was a client of mine. And she told you about my work. And then you came through it that way. But why were you even considering working together to get certified in the first place? 

Christen Conly: So I was certified as a health coach in 2018 and it was during that process that I felt like something was missing. I didn't have language for it then, but in my own personal experience, what I needed was not more tips and tools, but I wanted to stop the behavior. And the behavior is I would be, quote unquote, good all week long. I would wake up and be at the gym by 5.30 and I would count my macros. And then on the weekends, I would kind of fall off track. And it was this cycle that I felt like was keeping me stuck. And in that health coaching program, I went to the Health Coach Institute, which had great things, but I just didn't feel like it fully got to what I needed. And I started working with clients and some people took a lot away with the tips and the tools and I would teach them how to balance their blood sugar. But other clients would kind of, you know, do okay for a week or two, but then start to fall off track. And it was those clients that really kept me from diving in full steam into the health coaching world. I kept my foot in, I was in senior living for 20 years, so I was still in senior living working part time. And those clients that hadn't resolved their eating battles in, you know, 90 days, was the program I was doing. Those were the people that I just couldn't, I couldn't give myself a break on them. I really would take on a lot like of guilt and trying to fix them. And so that's why when I heard about your program, I met with you. I was like, this is what I need. 

Ali Shapiro: Yeah. You said so many things I want to unpack for people listening, because there's two things, well, three things. You said, I needed to figure out how to stop a behavior. And I love that you brought that out, because getting people started, getting ourselves started, getting clients started, that's almost starting behaviors, right, versus stopping behaviors, are often different processes. And of course, as you stop behaviors, new behaviors start. But getting people to stop something like falling off track over the weekends, or a lot of my clients eat in secret at night. That's really like kind of out of the scope of we both were certified as health coaches first. And I want to normalize that, because I think those programs are geared towards a different type of problem, I guess, of like, it's an education gap. It's a let's figure out, show you how blood sugar applies to you or gut health. And that is all really important. And I always say to people, like, what gets us started is not what gets us through the middle of change. And you know, we call it the muddle, right? Where you're like, what is happening? So do you think that… have you still seen that to be true? Like starting and stopping behaviors are kind of different skill sets? 

Christen Conly: I mean, to me, now that I'm in this world, they couldn't be more different. Like you use the gas and the brake metaphor. And to me, I didn't really understand that, until I went through the first year of certification with you. 

Ali Shapiro: Yeah, yeah. I love that you see how it's so different, because I think a lot of people think it's kind of one in the same, but it is really, really different. And Christen's referring to, I say, in the coaching world, what you hear is kind of clients have to know their why. Like, why is it personal, meaningful for them? And that's like putting the get, like, let's go. S is into this new thing, like, Let's freaking go. You know, I don't know where you got that, but I'm like, let's freaking go. Right. That's like, know your why. But then there's the, why not? And there's, I call it the break. And it's really about how safe do you feel to make this change? How is it going to challenge your identity? And that's really what we get to at the heart of the work that we do together. So the other thing, there's two other things you said, was that you came to it, because you had your own, your own weekend, right gap. And I also want to normalize that, because I think those of us who are in this space, we feel like we have to be perfect instead of like, no, we're human in this with our clients. And I find part of why I can be so effective is because I've been in the trenches myself. Like, don't you think that's the case, too? Like, I almost now only want to work with practitioners who have, like, had to come to their work, because of their own challenges, because you just get such a different lens, when you're working through it yourself. 

Christen Conly: Yeah. I mean, I think that empathy that you get from I've been there, I get it. And there is hope. And that is what I feel like with your program is you say that people sometimes come to you as like the last resort. They've tried it all and in my own personal work, as well as what I do with people, I felt like this was the thing that changed everything, this program, this certification, and this process. Because it was, for so many years, yo-yo dieting and back and forth and on and off and it's confusing to the body and to myself. And then that comes along with the shame piece. But it took me working through with the Truce certification to really even see that connection of, it's OK to fall off track. It's OK to have been through the process. 

Ali Shapiro: Yeah, yeah. So that brings me to my third point of like when you were talking about certain clients like you would give them the information, but then it was like okay let's freaking go and then it's like but we're not going. And can you think of any specific like examples, just so that we can maybe walk people through like what the unlocks were, as we get through more of our interview. Like can you think of a couple people that you felt really guilty, or like I know I used to be like how am I going to help this person, like just the anxiety, I'm like I'm doing this, because I'm supposed to like my work and now I'm just like… 

Christen Conly: Yeah, yes, totally. So there was one person before the Truce certification that always pops to my mind. She was a caregiver her whole life. She took care of her kids, her husband, her mom. She came to me after her mom died, so there was grief there. And her mom was really, that's how she spent her time, was taking care of her mom. And so she didn't know what to do with herself after she lost her mom. We were trying to come up with tools and solutions and things like that, but she just kept, quote unquote, falling off track at night when she didn't know what to do with her emotions. So food became the container for her feelings. And I just didn't have the tools to take her through a process that would help to unpack the why not. You know, physically, she had learned to balance her blood sugar. She was satiated, but she still kept eating. So she's someone that I always think back, and I'm like, oh, I wish I could go back and teach her now what we learned, midwife her  through this change process. 

Ali Shapiro: Yeah, we all have those. And I think that's so important to normalize. And so what I wanted to name is when we tend to get stuck with clients, right, I think thoughtful, caring practitioners, which you are in so many of the people that I attract, like the question becomes like, is it me? Or is it the client? And what you're saying is it's both. And we hear like, you can only take people as far as you've gone yourself. And I think what that means in relation to how I structured the certification was you have to be able to see your own patterns, right? We call it entanglement in the certification of like, when your desire to fix, for example, meets up with the client's desire to get your approval. And so everyone's like doing white knuckling change for maybe a couple weeks, but then it's like so hard to sustain. And so I just appreciate that you brought that up, because I think that's such a common question. And it's like the good news and bad news is when you do your own work, you can then see the patterns that your clients are going through as before you were entangled in them yourselves. You know how we go through this in such detail. I'm like, does that get people enough to make it clear? 

Christen Conly: Yeah, I think for me, I didn't realize at the time, but I did want my clients to like me. And, you know, that was, so I was trying to overgive and to over serve. And after we would get off the session, think of what else I could do to help them, you know, along the process. And so just even being able to see how entangled I was, was part of the Truce certification work of, okay, I need to be in my healthy adult self. Not my survivor self. 

Ali Shapiro: Yeah. And this is a model that for those of you listening, we get into. And actually there's a free training. I'll put the link in the show notes, if you're interested in this, where we go a little more detail into, but essentially the survivor self is… the healthy adult self is the side of your client that brings them to coaching. It's the one that wants to change. But the survivor self who isn't coachable, is like essentially afraid of making the changes who you're going to meet in the middle of change. And that's what Christen's talking about. And again, if you're interested in that more in depth, you can go watch that free training and the link is in the show notes of getting clients unstuck. Okay, so take me through and again, the certification is a year-long process. This is not like a six-week, six-month, it's a whole year. Can you take me through some of the key ahas that made you feel more comfortable going deeper with clients, when they were stuck, rather than spinning your wheels of saying, like, is it me? Or, oh, this, you know, when we talk about this in the certification, I'm not going to put words in your mouth. But sometimes we as practitioners are like, this client just doesn't want to change, right? They… it's like and all of it is protective, all of it is normal. But can you think of some of the key unlocks that happened for you through the certification that enabled you to support clients through getting unstuck? 

Christen Conly: Yeah, so I think just having that lens of the subject object theory of separating what's happening, you know, so the socialized mind from the, you know, and the conditioning and how people are looking for approval. Based on early survival patterns and how that makes sense, versus is something to beat yourself up with, was something that was really, you know, all the language back when I was certified that I heard was self-sabotage, self-sabotage. And that's what my clients were coming to me and saying. And so, when we shifted that lens to see how this made sense and how it was protective and how it was deeply wise, based on past patterns, was a huge shift in perspective for me, for my clients and that gives just that enough space to kind of break through the shame of, I did it again. I did it again. 

Ali Shapiro: I have chills, because you're naming something that I think we don't like slow down and talk about enough, but we often think people are motivated to change, but what's really driving them is shame, right? And shame isn't a sustainable motivation for us. So shame is I need to lose 30 pounds is oh my God, I, you know, I ate gluten and I caused my own arthritic or Hashimoto's symptoms, like I am not enough, I need to be fixed. And that that source of motivation can get people started, but it's like cheap carbs right it like burns, you burn through it very quickly. 

Christen Conly: Yes, exactly. I think just that distinction for me alone was, it allowed space to realize that the process is going to be more of a co-creation, a collaboration versus me providing the information to change and then, you know. So it really just gave me room for curiosity and for play of how could I even possibly know? Because what you give is a framework for change and how to navigate that process of change, rather than just give people more to do. 

Ali Shapiro: Yeah. Well, and then, so if people are listening, they're like, OK, well, if I am doing this, because I don't want to have symptoms, I don't want to gain weight, I don't want to feel so tired, it's like what Christen's describing is what we're doing, is getting people to want to want to make the change. And we say in the behavior change space, intrinsic motivation. But I think researchers, people are often confusing shame-based motivation with intrinsic motivation. Intrinsic motivation has to be from an adult change perspective. And again, this is a research-based process that I developed in grad school, based on not just coaching research, but how adults change. Is that adults need instant gratification, in terms of, why am I going to do this? Because I have bills to pay. I have a dog that needs to be taken out. I have kids that need to get to practice. So if I'm going to take time to change, this has to benefit me immediately. And what Christen was referring to earlier is like our conditioning is like, well, this has to get me in remission of my symptoms, which is a longer term game. This has to get me to lose weight, which is a longer term game. And what we need to do in that change space of why does this make sense? First of all, you start to see that you're whole, right, that you aren't broken. And so then you can start to look at like, why would I want to do this, instead of feeling like it's being forced upon me, out of pressure. And I think when you slow down and can coach that way, people start to discover why they want to want to change, outside of these pressure-filled reasons of weight loss and, you know, resolving all symptoms, resolving all pain. It doesn't mean that you can't get there. But you can't start with the end in mind. And so you have to figure out, for example, like I just told Christen, I closed up my Truce with Food for Life group. It's not open to the public. It's only if you're at a certain developmental stage. But someone was sharing that they started swimming. And she's like, it wasn't to do my laps. It wasn't to, it just started as you talk about experimenting. And it was just to see like, what would this be like? And she's like and now I love it. And so it was like she had to find her own reasons, outside of weight loss, or getting in a certain amount of laps that will be perfect, or that someone tells me is zone two training now, whatever midlife language we're using. But are you following me with that? That is the sustainable motivation that actually we have to discover in the middle of change of like, why am I going to do this to feel good instead of running away from pain? Does that track or did I go off on a tangent? 

Christen Conly: No, I think it completely tracks. Because I think that empowerment to, you know, what I do is I help people return to their intuition and that empowerment they get from, oh, I can do what I want to do and I can enjoy it and it can give back. That reinforcement over time really does restore self-trust and that they know what's right for them and that authority, that self-authoring, you know, I've got me, no matter what, so yes. 

Ali Shapiro: Yeah, yeah, I think you said that much more practically than I. I said it more academically, like want to want to make the choice, but it's like, oh, this feels good. There's some ease here. There's some I'm choosing this, rather than it's being forced down my throat from experts, media, whoever we think has the answer. 

Christen Conly: Yeah, the shoulds and the have tos and all the musts that go along with that. 

Ali Shapiro: And that takes some time. And I don't know about you, but I used to have clients come to me saying, I have this inner rebel, inner food rebel. And it's like, actually, none of us like being told what to do. In grad school, we learned adults don't like their autonomy being taken away. And I can tell you, kids don't either.  

Christen Conly: I know that as well, I've got teenagers. 

Ali Shapiro: Okay, so I remember, so for everyone, Christen actually coaches in my groups, she supports my clients, she's amazing. And we Voxer just to make sure everyone is being supported and getting the clarity they need. And one of the Voxers you said to me like it's such a relief to not have to know how to like fix this for a client. Or like, you know, again find a better hack but rather really support them to figure out what's the next best step for them. As we often say in Truce with food like Rumi says walk and the way will appear rather than so many of us are trying to find a plan to fit into, rather than letting the plan that's right for us emerge. And so can you explain to like what is the difference for you, that you've seen, as you just are there for people to guide them back to their own intuition, to kind of what will be their next steps as you coach them through kind of the protective resistance to change, versus feeling like you have to fix or come up with a hack, or double down on your plan? 

Christen Conly: Yeah, I think because this is such a process of transformation that I don't even have the expectation of myself anymore that I could potentially fix someone. So I know that everyone has blind spots. I have blind spots. Everyone I know has some blind spots. And being able to sometimes see what people don't see, but also know that there's no way I could fix this for them, was a huge unlock for me, was a huge shift in perspective from I think the parts of myself that back in 2018 were just hypervigilant and were just like, this person's in pain, let me help them, let me help them. Now it's a more relaxed embodied state of, okay, this is hard. I can be with my own discomfort enough so that I can witness yours, without having to be solved, or to eradicate the problem. 

Ali Shapiro: Oh my God, I love that, you gave me chills, when you said I don't even have the expectation I can fix or have to take responsibility for that, because for so many of us who are caregivers and care about other people, we don't often realize we're operating even under that assumption that I should… like we're just trying to not have other people be uncomfortable, which is… can be noble, but it's like a temporary fix, because like you said people have to,,, you can't fix or change other people and 

Christen Conly: Yeah, I mean, this TCC has changed the way I parent. It's changed my relationships. It's changed, obviously, my work. I finally feel rooted, embodied enough that I will be OK, even when others aren't. And it doesn't mean I don't have emotions. It doesn't mean I can't… But it doesn't knock me off my center in the way that it used to. 

Ali Shapiro: Yeah. And what is, you know, because you've been in my groups and the people in my groups always say like this group, this group, what do you, in your words, is the magic of just letting someone like you holding space for their discomfort and witnessing it, rather than trying to fix it? Like what, in your words, what is the magic that happens there that actually then gets them where they want to go? 

Christen Conly: I think that it's just allowing people to be seen, witnessed, validated that what they're going through is really hard. You know, I had in one of the groups, I had a lovely person that was trying to help the other person. And I'm like, what if we just sat there and we just breathe and we just let her have her moment. And I think it's so important for the client, because they realize that these things ebb and flow. If they allow themselves to feel like that, they won't be there forever. It kind of moves like a wave. It crashes. And to just be held in that is a beautiful experience for them. And for me to witness, it's an honor. And I think it also helps the other people in the small group realize, oh, they don't have to fix, or solve, or ask a question, to help them move on. 

Ali Shapiro: I love that you named that it's an honor, because I really feel like this is sacred work and I just love that because it feels that way. So I love that you named that it is an honor to be with someone and just be there with them. 

Christen Conly: Yeah, I'm not a surface level person. I'm not good at, you know and so being able to do this work really does feel like an honor and it feels there's so much integrity behind the program and behind the work and the fact that we're guiding people back to themselves, rather than what someone else tells them. So it does feel like, it feels like a gift. 

Ali Shapiro: Yeah. Someone in the Truce with Food for Life, we talked about what we're doing or no longer doing. And someone was like, no longer following brohacker, you know, optimization wellness. And I was like, yes. Like, can we actually enjoy our lives, rather than just trying to extend them? Yeah. 

Christen Conly: I've been out of that world for a little while, but I was there at one point and it was... 

Ali Shapiro: We have to go through it, we all do. Yeah, I'm not in it either anymore. And I'm like, oh, thank God. Now, what about too, because I think when you start out, and again, TCC is for people who have been coaching for a couple years, you know and so again, a lot of what we learn in our initial, you know, I went to IIN, you went to the Health Coach Institute, like that will get you started for sure. And again, if you want to do strictly kind of like protocols and stay on kind of foundational chain, well, yeah, at least get people started. I don't know how to describe it any differently. But there is doubt that's going to come up, when you're on the pathway to mastery. I think that sometimes the internet world has ruined the coaching industry, because people think they can get good at coaching in like two years, or like six months. There was, you remember that era where everybody was just it was essentially like a multi-level marketing scam, where it was like take my coaching blueprint and then people were training other people in training who had never coached. It was like a really, it was a time. Anyways, there's a lot of self-doubt that comes up inevitably, when you're trying to really get good at something, because mastery takes a while. How has this framework, you said it's helped you feel rooted, but how has it helped you feel confident to go deeper with people? Because you and I and the people who come to my work are not surface level people either. But again, thoughtful people are like, I don't want to be opening up Pandora's box, you know, here or whatnot. So how do you think it supported you to feel confident to go there with people, so they can get the results that they want? 

Christen Conly: I think, you know, there was something you said just this year that I heard you say about how and maybe you can reword it for me, but how you don't have to rely on the past, in order to change the future? I think you were talking about the difference between therapy and this. 

Ali Shapiro: Oh, yeah. I was talking about how, and again, this is a generalization, but therapy kind of helps us make sense of the past, I think. But then this work is kind of like, how can I change the meaning of what happened, right? How can it give us empowerment? So as a shorthand, I'll use my own example of like, you know, I had this deep story that my body was a disappointment, because of my weight struggles, my cancer experience, my IBS, my depression. We won't label everything that I had. And I think getting into therapy, in my early 20s, really helped me kind of have the ego structure to like accept what happened. And then this work enabled me to really change that story of your body isn't a disappointment. It was doing the best with the inputs that it had. And then obviously that doesn't mean you ride off into the sunset, but so I think you need both, but I think when you change the future, the past, because now it feels like and again, we see this on, well, it's some, it's not in my Instagram feed, but I know it's in other people's Instagram feed of like the wound is where your medicine is too, but it takes a little bit of time to get there. It doesn't just happen like overnight. So is that what you meant? You think I meant that like the meaning of the past changes, when you change the future? 

Christen Conly: Yes. And so the fact that we go in at the story level and there's the, you know, the work around the emotional immune system and that has allowed me to go deeper with clients in a way that I didn't have language for, in the past. I understood that there was a story or, you know, I had a therapist before that and like a core wound, but it didn't teach me how to change the story. And, you know, there's a lot of talk about post-traumatic growth and things like that. That is where I think the Truce certification is so great, because it's not just, okay, let's, you know, we spend one module in the past, but what do we want to move towards? What makes you feel alive? Can we get to that? And so operating at the story level, understanding their triggers, because a lot of people I work with don't even know what their trigger is, because they just feel triggered all the time. 

Ali Shapiro: Yeah, I like that, because it's very easy these days for that to happen. 

Christen Conly: Totally. Totally. I'm right there with them. But having clarity on what they are and how that affects and interacts with the story and how that impacts the physical body and, you know, you bring nervous system work into your work to help you know, the mind and the body. So that is all how I've been able to go a little bit deeper is to address the body, to address the mind and also to orient towards, okay, how do I metabolize this story? How do I synthesize what happened and digest it? And then what do I want to do with it? 

Ali Shapiro: Yeah. And for people listening, again, if you're a practitioner, but also if you're just like a regular person who has quote unquote done mindset work, mindset, what Christen's talking about, mindset is kind of the level of like chatter, but we're going, the story level is identity. So your identity creates your mindset. So for example, if you are someone who over functions and you are used to being someone who succeeds, your mindset is a lot of times be like, am I ahead? Am I behind? Am I getting things done? So the mindset is actually at the level of just your thoughts, but we're working at the identity level, which is embedded into how you make meaning, which is embedded into the body and your feelings and how you interpret the world. Is that, I mean, it's, but they're very different mindset work and identity work. And story forces you to address the identity that you had to uphold to feel safe. And when you don't feel that identity is being upheld, that's when you turn to food or you do your unhealthy habits. 

Christen Conly: Yeah, I can even give you an example of one of the clients I work with that I would have never been able to get there with her without this. So she was actually type 1 diabetic. And so I already knew that there wasn't a lot I could do around food. She already had blood sugar figured out. And she was high up in a corporation. And it was totally hustle culture. Everyone's marathoners and working really long hours. And there's a lot of fear around all the stress, because people had heart attacks and things like that, just from the stress load. Well, I'm sure it's not just from the stress load, but she had been friends with people that that had happened to. So there was a lot of fear around that. And so helping her figure out her story and work through, you know, these protective patterns of, you know, the hustle culture, the competing and then orienting to the set of values that made her feel most alive in the past helped her to really see that, I mean, it was really burnout is what we ended up working around, because the food piece was kind of already, you know, somewhat figured out. But that pattern of like, you know, trying to always what up and be, you know, to be the best, it just kept her wheels spinning. 

Ali Shapiro: Yeah. So, well, this leads into like, how are your client sessions different? I love that example of like, someone comes in, they think it's one thing. And it's like and we get into this in the certification, there's two different types of change. There's like technical versus adaptive. And again, in the training that I mentioned at the top of the hour, I talk about that in there. But adaptive change is where like, let's get to the real issue, right? Technical changes like the issue is food, or the issue is stress, or the issue is, you know, you're not sleeping. But then it's like okay let's get to the real issue underneath that and that's what you did for her, it was like burnout from this identity around overachieving right and constantly performing, but the mindset work would still keep her in that frame of a head behind, instead of looking at why she's even thinking in that all-or-nothing black-and-white way in the beginning. 

Christen Conly: Yeah, and we just experimented. I was like, what if one day you didn't run? What if one day you tried yoga or tried walking? And that approach of just, let's try it, that allows, I think, people to feel like, OK, maybe I will or maybe I won't. It gives them, I think it puts the ball on their court, so that they can see it's not so make or break. And it's just one experiment, one time. And that creates safety in the system, you know, to be able to just play with things. 

Ali Shapiro: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and again, that coming back to the top of our conversation, that safety in the system. I love how you said that. Then people have agency and then it's like, oh, I'm choosing this instead of, I don't want to disappoint my coach, or I feel pressure to do this perfectly now. It's like, let's just see. Nobody knows. Nobody really knows. 

Christen Conly: Yeah, yeah. And I don’t either, so let’s just… 

Ali Shapiro: But that's a big developmental piece and actually for people listening, who are practitioners, we really get into how clients are going to bring authoritative baggage to you and they're going to put that on you. And often some of the ways that we're trained to coach, we kind of keep that prop going. We're the expert. We know instead of like, I don't know what's going to work for you, but I'm going to show you how to figure it out for yourself. 

Christen Conly: Absolutely. I feel like the more I learn, the less I know. 

Ali Shapiro: Well, paradox is truth. We get very spiritual in interest. So what kind of different results are you getting with clients? You said it's changed your practice. And I love that you also mentioned it's changed your parenting and relationships, because I hear that all the time. And I think people are going to be like, well, how is this going to translate to clients? And how are things different in your work now? You gave that concrete example, which I love. It's like you were able to get to the root of the issue and like really help her change burnout. 

Christen Conly: Yeah, I think it's changed in, I really was offering tips and tools, before I went to the Truce certification. And now these deeper connections, like I had another woman that just, she was stuck in kind of good girl culture and she was always accommodating and she was out to dinner with her family and they had only ordered two desserts and everyone else was eating them and she was like getting panicky, but she wouldn't advocate for herself. And we were able to tie that back to as a child, her stepfather would eat the leftovers, her leftovers. She would never know if the food would still be in there, or if he would have eaten, you know, her stuff. And so being able to make that connection for her, I mean, it was such an emotional, but like such a, oh, now I can see why I was doing this. And now I have the tools to change that behavior, to kind of withstand that physical discomfort and, you know, the impulses, the sensations, the emotions that come along with change, rather than just kind of band-aid results of, why don't you take, you know, we'll do some box breathing, which I love box breathing. I'm a yoga teacher, but I'm just. So it's changed the level that I can connect with people for sure. 

Ali Shapiro: And because you value depth, like, are you having more fun with, I mean, I just, yeah. Okay. I'm sorry. Go ahead. 

Christen Conly: Yeah. I mean, I love it. I love coaching through this framework. I love being able to meet people. I love being able to play and not make it about me. And if someone's like, no, that's not it. I'm like, great, you know, let's go there. So you have been a great role model to me in, you know, coaching. It's such a pleasure to watch you. I've watched you coach for these years and be part of your communities. And, you know, I said this to you after the, I went through the certification the first time, like the way that you can see things and know things and bring them forward in a way that doesn't create shame, that makes you feel seen, that makes you have ahas. It's just, I mean, there's nothing that compares, I feel like. It's just so great. 

Ali Shapiro: Thank you. Well, it's because I've done my own work. I used to take myself so seriously, because I had my own shame. And now I'm just like, nobody knows. 

Christen Conly: Yeah. And we laugh a lot. And it's fun. And yeah. 

Ali Shapiro: We do laugh a lot. I mean, because I always say this, the healthier you get, the more absurd you realize the world is. It's just like, I can't, I don't even know what to say. I, you know what I mean? 

Christen Conly: Yes, totally.

Ali Shapiro: And you had talked, I just want to circle back about, cause you had talked about the emotional immune system and my clients tend to value that research lens. I mean, how does that feel learning the research, the theory? I guess you get practical tools and all that, but how has that also, I think, is that just, I guess maybe you even said it and I'm just underlining it, it gives you language for what's happening. And, you know, I always use the metaphor of like, we're a midwife. Like you kind of have to just like trust, once you get the framework, you can trust the process and you're there to be like, hey, like I was thinking about when I was giving birth and my midwife's like, I think I'm going to break your water. How does that feel to you? And I was like, yes. And then she was like, you got to stand up again. And I was like, no. And I was like, I can't. She's like, you're not going to get through it if you don't stand. But she trusted the transformation I was going through in birth and like knew those tweaks, versus like sometimes doctors are like, cover your ass medicine. Like, I don't know what's happening. I have to give you these, all of this. But like how has having that research based process that you feel like you can then bring your own intuition to, I mean and maybe I'm leading the witness. I'm saying something, what lands? 

Christen Conly: No, it all lands. Because it's really a shift from, it's not a problem to be fixed, this change. 

Ali Shapiro: Yes, thank you. 

Christen Conly: Yes, it's not a problem to be fixed. It's a process to be navigated through. And so that is really, like having the language is really important to me. The emotional immune system and how I communicate that with clients, because it helps them to, you know, understand rationally what's happening. And then being able to embody that takes a little bit of time, because we spent a lot of years developing these patterns. 

Ali Shapiro: And the body moves so much more slowly than the brain. 

Christen Conly: Yes, they are deeply embedded in the nervous system. And so knowing that this process is forgiving, that it's not, you know, all or nothing, that you kind of warn us by saying it's like a snowball rolling downhill. It starts small, but it gets and it does. I mean, my snowball is like a boulder now. 

Ali Shapiro: Well, and I think that's actually, you just, you've given so many good nuggets. I think for those of us who are change practitioners, we kind of like live for those big ahas. And the aha is like the starting place. It's like, oh, you have that, but then integrating it. And so I think we have to realize like the aha's, it's great, but the integration comes through repetition, seeing the pattern over and over again. But change has to kind of start small and incremental and then it builds. That's actually also what came up in my group, in Truce with Food for Life today. We had our closing circle, so it's just really fresh. And it was an amazing group of people were just like, oh my God, C plus average, how that accumulates, like it's mind blowing. Do you know what I mean? 

Christen Conly: It is. Yeah, from the nervous system work I've done and learned, it's the integration is so important. And I think in our world, you know, we have a problem, we want to eradicate it, we want to get rid of it, we want to, you know and that's just not how the body works. That's not how the nervous system works. And I mean, that could be a little hard for people to hear, but it's the truth. But it's so much more impactful than, you know, trying something for 30 days or nine, you know, it's going to be embodied change, rather than just like that chain based motivation we talked about, in the beginning. 

Ali Shapiro: Yeah, because if it does feel like, but also people are like, I feel my system relax in that, right? Like it's kind of disappointing, but it's also like, oh, I can do slow. I can do a little bit at a time. It's the, I got to change everything all at once. That is like, so, makes us feel so unsafe in our system. So on edge, you know, so. 

Christen Conly: I've heard there's a new term out there. I'm not on TikTok or anything, but someone told me there's a new term called slow maxing. I'm like, oh, okay, now everything's switching. Now we're all going to be trying to go slow. Well, we'll see if it lands. 

Ali Shapiro: Yeah, yeah. Well, and what we teach and what Truce is like, it's not that fast is bad. It's not that slow is good. It's having the flexibility to know when to do what, but slow and steady does win the race. But sometimes then it starts to get faster than you're, and that's okay. Like you and I are experiencing. I mean, it still means you have to, it's slow to work through your stuff. But it's like each time you hit your stuff, you get faster at it, because you have more capacity. You have more wholeness of like, I make sense. My reaction makes sense. My crazy behavior that I didn't want to do makes sense. 

Christen Conly: Yeah, I think about a Chinese finger trap. You know, you go in there first, it's like, I don't know what to do. And then eventually it's like, oh, OK, I can figure this out. Yeah, exactly. 

Ali Shapiro: And you have to relax into it. Because if you pull that trap tighter, it's like, ah. 

Christen Conly: Yes, exactly. 

Ali Shapiro: So, thank you so much. Is there anything that I like maybe didn't ask you or that like has come to mind from our conversation around the certification and you know, we kind of asked where you are now and oh, also you've transitioned out of senior living, right? Like you…

Christen Conly: Yes. Yeah. I fully left. 

Ali Shapiro: Yeah. How's it doing this a lot more? 

Christen Conly: Yeah. It's great. So I teach yoga. I do health coaching on my own and teach meditation, like an embodied form of meditation. And I still see people at a local therapist office as well. And so it's just so empowering watching. I really only work with women at this time, just because no man has ever asked to work with me. Like helping women navigate this process of change, which, you know, requires the mind and the body and really the soul to be online. And just helping people, you know, recognize that their body, their system has done everything it has, you know, in a way based on survival. They may not be thriving, but we can reprogram the system and kind of update it, so that they have new experiences and more empowerment and more agency and restore that self-trust. So we just kind of bring healing to those patterns rather than, you know, I think when I first got to this, I was like, let me just get rid of everything. And that kind of just keeps us even more in survival instinct, because we're kind of battling. So I'm so happy to have been part of this. If anyone has any questions about the Truce certification, you know, obviously go to you, but firsthand experience, you know, I can always speak to it because it has been, it's been life changing. 

Ali Shapiro: Thank you so much. Yeah. No, I mean, I want people to be like, talk to people who have been through it, because you know this, like my groups, we have such the right people and that's where the magic is. And same with the certification. So I want people to feel like, hey, this is the right next step for me. Again, if I'm all about agency and choice, I don't do the, I don't do the scarcity based marketing. It keeps people in fear, because then as soon as you get afraid again, you go on to something else. I'm just not, I did that kind of person in the beginning and it's, you know, that will create a lot of self-doubt in you. But where can people find you, because you are an amazing practitioner yourself. Like I said, Christen supports me with my clients and my group and she sees people as well. 

Christen Conly: So my website is just my name, which is spelled differently than most people ever. I never had the pencil on it, when I was young because it's C-H-R-I-S-T-E-N Conly, C-O-N-L-Y. So www.ChristenConly.com. And then my Instagram account got hacked. So I just created a new one. So there's only a few followers, because I haven't really restarted. But that is the same spelling, Christen.conly, that's my Instagram handle. So I will be posting more in the future, but just haven't gotten that back up yet. 

Ali Shapiro: Do you feel like you've arrived since you've been hacked? I mean, you’re on the radar.

Christen Conly: I know. So funny. 

Ali Shapiro: Well, thank you so much for sharing about your experience. And I think people got a good idea of what we do, the magic behind the curtain. 

Christen Conly: Yeah, it's great. Thank you for having me, Ali. 

Ali Shapiro: Of course.